Re: [RML] Unhappy Xmas III (long)

Aquamail (aquamail at mypostbox.com)
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:02:44 +1100

Ken,

Any quality water treatment product claiming to remove chloramines should
also remove ammonia. It is only the ones of dubious quality or those
"anti-chlorine" agents which will break that chlorine/ammonia bond and
neutralize the chlorine leaving ammonia. Prime is one of the better products
available. However, I do think that there is something to be said for "made
in Australia to suit Australian tap water conditions". The Aquasonic product
Chlormon has always been popular in Brisbane, due to the notoriously poor
tap water quality- worse in some areas than others. It will remove chlorine,
cloramines, ammonia (up to 0.75ppm per dose- multiple doses can be used) and
various heavy metals. Aquasonic also make another product called Extra Power
Water Purifier which is used in most areas of Australia, and will also
efficiently remove chloramines (albiet at not quite as high a level as the
Chlormon). I do have great faith in both these products, as I was working in
an aquarium store in Sydney about 15 years ago when chloramines were first
used in the tap water there. The water authorities chose not to let anyone
know of this addition, and there were massive fish kills right across
Sydney- many heartbroken aquarists. Many chlorine/chloramine agents were
shown to be useless. Those aquarists using the Extra Power Water Purifier,
and only one or two other brands (out of the many available), had no
problems at all. Chlormon was developed later as tap water deteriorated even
further in quality, and can also be used to remove ammonia directly from the
aquarium.

Do be wary using the AP test kit. Some ammonia reagents have limited
lifespans (a lot shorter than the Prime). Imported test kits containing
reagents with shorter life spans such as those used with nitrite and some
ammonia test kits should always be treated with caution.

It is extremely unlikely that the neutralizing reaction would reverse and
produce ammonia. It is far more likely that oxygen levels were extremely low
in the drum, and combined with an air pump that was not operational in the
aquarium led to your disaster. I also quite often prepare water well ahead
of time, but always drop an airstone in 24 hours before I use the water to
re-oxygenate it.

Prime, Chlormon, and related products will sometimes start to smell "funny".
It will generally not affect their effectiveness. One point you should
remember is to be very careful that these products are not used either with
each other, or with other "water ager" type products. They can react
together with detrimental effect. If overdosed they will also remove oxgyen
from the water.

Bacterial infection was mentioned. Whilst it is a vague possibilty, (were
any new fish added recently?), on the balance of probability, I would doubt
it. Bacterial infections can occur with rapidity, as in the case of some
strains of columnaris, but it would be rare for them to strike an entire
tank down that quickly. Toxins would be a more probable cause. The
interesting thing with many toxins is that the fish often recover quickly
(sometimes in minutes) when transferred to a bucket of aerated, clean water.

Do you have access to a microscope? Maybe it is worth sacrificing one of the
worst affected fish for skin scraping, gill analysis, and dissection?

Anway, enough rambling. Perhaps some of this will give you food for thought
Ken?

Regards, & Merry Christmas to all,
Jennifer.

AQUAMAIL
Australia's Aquatic Mail Order Specialists
http://www.aquamail.com.au
ph: 1800 355 799
fax: 1800 355 699
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Brook <kbrook at netspace.net.au>
To: <rainbowfish at pcug.org.au>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 9:03 PM
Subject: [RML] Unhappy Xmas III

> Latest update - 1 dead blue eye, 1 dead Florida Flag Fish today.
> Remaining papuae has a distorted popped out eye - new after the said
> incident. Remaining female Congo swimming a little upright. Other fish
> seem OK.... and swimming at depth.
>
> Latest theory from an unnamed punter and one for Jennifer to help with
> maybe !
> Was its ammonia - in Brisbane we have left over ammonia coming out of
> the tap left over from chloramine production at water treatment works.
>
> Remember that I treat my drum with Prime - mix it - the leave it for a
> few days...
>
> Prime complexes this out but doesn't remove it at a chemcial level ,,,,.
> Maybe warm weather dissociates it back .... (remember no nitro bacteria
> in the drum) .... ammonia spike kills the fish then dissipates overnight
> - broken down by tank bacteria. Also new water raises tank pH over 7.0
> where ammonia becomes toxic...
>
> Two other comments - how old is the Prime when I get it - what is shelf
> life of the product? Is the Aussie product years old by the time it gets
> here.... Mine is down to the end of the bottle and 6 months old ex the
> LFS. Why not buy the cheaper and as effective Aussie product from
> Aquasonic says the un-named punter who suspects US chemical technology?
> A bit of a slag on the great Seachem here so I've emailed them for a
> response. Jennifer may be able to comment as I believe she is a purveyor
> of both.
>
> And maybe the same for chloramine as well - so do neutralisers complex
> up chloramine and ammonia permanently or does the reaction reverse with
> temperature and time.
>
> Of course using the old crude method of adding new water and
> neutralising as you go would have complexed out the toxins until the
> microbes and plants got at them.
>
> Solution if I keep the water tank - neutralise a few hours before adding
> water, or add a small box filter to give the tank it's own N-cycle. ???
>
> It starting to sound very weird ....
>
>
>